Superman Kills

GoZ wrote:

Shaun wrote:

TJ wrote:

Shaun wrote:

hmmm a scenario with which Superman kills

Using Brainiac tech, Lex Luthor finds out Superman's civilian identity and issues a hit on Clark and everyone close to him. Conduit (yea I'm throwing out the big wigs) Deathtrap, and Equus all take the contract and kill or kidnap all Superman knows.

Later on when a pissed/distraught Superman confronts Luthor, Luthor threatens to destroy Metropolis and Smallville with a space based weapon. Seeing enough death because of Luthor's deeds, Superman resorts to heat visioning(??) Luthor. with his last dying breath, Luthor activates a death trigger which incinerates Metropolis and Smallville leaving Superman alone to regret all he has done.

who are you?

I am the alpha and omega...

NO MORE SCRIPTURE!!!!!

or GoZ will put his cigarette out in your eye.

TJ wrote:

GoZ wrote:

Shaun wrote:

TJ wrote:

Shaun wrote:

hmmm a scenario with which Superman kills

Using Brainiac tech, Lex Luthor finds out Superman's civilian identity and issues a hit on Clark and everyone close to him. Conduit (yea I'm throwing out the big wigs) Deathtrap, and Equus all take the contract and kill or kidnap all Superman knows.

Later on when a pissed/distraught Superman confronts Luthor, Luthor threatens to destroy Metropolis and Smallville with a space based weapon. Seeing enough death because of Luthor's deeds, Superman resorts to heat visioning(??) Luthor. with his last dying breath, Luthor activates a death trigger which incinerates Metropolis and Smallville leaving Superman alone to regret all he has done.

who are you?

I am the alpha and omega...

NO MORE SCRIPTURE!!!!!

or GoZ will put his cigarette out in your eye.

sorry GoZ I didnt mean to

should I get Gabe so you can put that cigarette out?

True Believer wrote:

Mr.Wholesome wrote:

This is really just becoming a matter of syntax. I suppose it just depends on what a person views as murder or killing. I do not believe that killing and murdering is the same thing. Murder I see as willingly killing someone. Killing is not. If you accidentally kill someone then you did not murder them you killed them. If you kill someone on purpose then you have murdered them. Doesn't matter how. The only difference, as I see it, is intent.

Semantics.

I wasn't gonna start calling Jim or Ubiquitous any names and you shouldn't either.










*You can go ahead and edit this kind of stuff. It'd help me to not look like an idiot.

GoZ wrote:

Shaun wrote:

TJ wrote:

GoZ wrote:

Shaun wrote:

TJ wrote:

Shaun wrote:

hmmm a scenario with which Superman kills

Using Brainiac tech, Lex Luthor finds out Superman's civilian identity and issues a hit on Clark and everyone close to him. Conduit (yea I'm throwing out the big wigs) Deathtrap, and Equus all take the contract and kill or kidnap all Superman knows.

Later on when a pissed/distraught Superman confronts Luthor, Luthor threatens to destroy Metropolis and Smallville with a space based weapon. Seeing enough death because of Luthor's deeds, Superman resorts to heat visioning(??) Luthor. with his last dying breath, Luthor activates a death trigger which incinerates Metropolis and Smallville leaving Superman alone to regret all he has done.

who are you?

I am the alpha and omega...

NO MORE SCRIPTURE!!!!!

or GoZ will put his cigarette out in your eye.

sorry GoZ I didnt mean to

should I get Gabe so you can put that cigarette out?

Nawww, I'm good...Thanks, though....

no prob

True Believer wrote:

Mr.Wholesome wrote:

This is really just becoming a matter of syntax. I suppose it just depends on what a person views as murder or killing. I do not believe that killing and murdering is the same thing. Murder I see as willingly killing someone. Killing is not. If you accidentally kill someone then you did not murder them you killed them. If you kill someone on purpose then you have murdered them. Doesn't matter how. The only difference, as I see it, is intent.

Semantics.

But the semantics is important. I side with Wholesome. A soldier who kills for his country is not a murderer. A cop who shoots someone in the line of duty is not a murderer and apparently in Texas you can shoot peole running from your property and that is not murder. Murder is a legal definition. Abortion is not murder, because it is a legally sanctioned medical procedue, even if you do not agree with the law - it is the law of the land.

To Wholesome - my opinion on your scenario is that your description was over the top. You are entitled to write what you like and I support your right to do so. My comment about your words was more about a surprise to the details you put in, than it was a judgement of your mental health (that of course is always in question!) I was not trying to offend you and I apoligize if I have.

The first few post in this thread were referring to Superman murdering, not just killing and my assumption was justified, as Superman had already killed previously and so would negate the need for this thread. But my evidence of Manchester Black's attempts has not been refuted or challenged. Maxwell Lord's manipulation would not make Superman a murderer, so the assumption is what would drive Supes to murder. if you use Wholesome's scenario I would pose a question, suppose it was discovered that Lex had planned it. Then even if Supes would not be convicted for killing those directly invloved - it would be murder if he then went after Lex.

The other evidence for Supes as a murderer was Kingdom Come, Supes was ready to drop the roof on Congress, before Green lantern and Batman convinced him. It begs the question if they were late or had been killed, then would Superman had gone through with it?

Jim! wrote:

True Believer wrote:

Mr.Wholesome wrote:

This is really just becoming a matter of syntax. I suppose it just depends on what a person views as murder or killing. I do not believe that killing and murdering is the same thing. Murder I see as willingly killing someone. Killing is not. If you accidentally kill someone then you did not murder them you killed them. If you kill someone on purpose then you have murdered them. Doesn't matter how. The only difference, as I see it, is intent.

Semantics.

But the semantics is important. I side with Wholesome. A soldier who kills for his country is not a murderer. A cop who shoots someone in the line of duty is not a murderer and apparently in Texas you can shoot peole running from your property and that is not murder. Murder is a legal definition. Abortion is not murder, because it is a legally sanctioned medical procedue, even if you do not agree with the law - it is the law of the land.

To Wholesome - my opinion on your scenario is that your description was over the top. You are entitled to write what you like and I support your right to do so. My comment about your words was more about a surprise to the details you put in, than it was a judgement of your mental health (that of course is always in question!) I was not trying to offend you and I apoligize if I have.

The first few post in this thread were referring to Superman murdering, not just killing and my assumption was justified, as Superman had already killed previously and so would negate the need for this thread. But my evidence of Manchester Black's attempts has not been refuted or challenged. Maxwell Lord's manipulation would not make Superman a murderer, so the assumption is what would drive Supes to murder. if you use Wholesome's scenario I would pose a question, suppose it was discovered that Lex had planned it. Then even if Supes would not be convicted for killing those directly invloved - it would be murder if he then went after Lex.

The other evidence for Supes as a murderer was Kingdom Come, Supes was ready to drop the roof on Congress, before Green lantern and Batman convinced him. It begs the question if they were late or had been killed, then would Superman had gone through with it?

Well being someone who lives in Texas I can assure you if you shoot someone on your property it is most definitely murder and you WILL be going to jail. You can always shoot someone on your property, but whether you go to jail is up to the law, which I believe in all states illegal.
I suppose you should have to look at the murder thing the other way. In Iraq, the people we are fighting are called terrorists right? and our troops are the heroes. To them there so called terrorists are freedom fighters, and we are the enemies. Therefore we are murdering them on there own land. I never said they weren't wrong, but it is a two-way street.
Why isn't abortion murder? Just because it is a medical procedure does not make it alright. It is technically impossible to kill a fetus without knowing for sure if the fetus will ever have felt the pain. Taking someones life against there will is the definition of murder, and I'm pretty certain a baby does not want his/her life to end before it began. A cop killing in the line of duty? Sadly that is hardly the case these days, the cops nowadays are rather violent and angry. It is rare that one has to shoot a criminal, but for the sake of moving on lets say he does kill a criminal. The criminal say had a knife, and was running at the officer, so he shot in self-defense. That you say would not count as murder because self-defense, or line of duty? Killing someone is definition of murder Its the most basic form. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all murders are wrong. Some have truly been on accident, and others in self-defense, BUT even though you killed someone without malice intent, you still have to go to court and plead you case because you murdered someone.

TheUbiquitious_MrLoveBear wrote:

Well being someone who lives in Texas I can assure you if you shoot someone on your property it is most definitely murder and you WILL be going to jail. You can always shoot someone on your property, but whether you go to jail is up to the law, which I believe in all states illegal.
I suppose you should have to look at the murder thing the other way. In Iraq, the people we are fighting are called terrorists right? and our troops are the heroes. To them there so called terrorists are freedom fighters, and we are the enemies. Therefore we are murdering them on there own land. I never said they weren't wrong, but it is a two-way street.
Why isn't abortion murder? Just because it is a medical procedure does not make it alright. It is technically impossible to kill a fetus without knowing for sure if the fetus will ever have felt the pain. Taking someones life against there will is the definition of murder, and I'm pretty certain a baby does not want his/her life to end before it began. A cop killing in the line of duty? Sadly that is hardly the case these days, the cops nowadays are rather violent and angry. It is rare that one has to shoot a criminal, but for the sake of moving on lets say he does kill a criminal. The criminal say had a knife, and was running at the officer, so he shot in self-defense. That you say would not count as murder because self-defense, or line of duty? Killing someone is definition of murder Its the most basic form. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all murders are wrong. Some have truly been on accident, and others in self-defense, BUT even though you killed someone without malice intent, you still have to go to court and plead you case because you murdered someone.

In the shooting case most recently in the paper, the Texas court found the defendant not guilty of murder, therefore he is not a murderer. Murder is a legal definition, which is why I said that abortion is not murder. It has nothing to do with right or wrong, or whether the fetus feels pain, it is a legal medical procedure, which is why doctors and women carrying the fetus are not arrested. Not all cops are violent and angry and their shootings are reviewed and if it falls within the guidelines, it is not murder. Again not making a judgement on right or wrong, just what the law says. A soldier is following orders. i do not believe the current war is a just war, but that doesn't make the soldier a murderer. The point of view I am taking is ours. Even though a cow may consider the slaughter of his people murder, I see it as making lunch. Are you to be considered a murderer because you use an anti-bacterial soap? You plead your case in court because you've killed someone, it is the court's judgement to determine if its murder.

Jim is for the most part right. Murder has a legal definition though legal definitions are not the only definitions. Its somewhat subjective. I've personally see murder as being the intentional taking of a life. Unintentionally taking a life is not murder in my eyes. I think that this is what most people believe though it is not the legal definition. I do believe that murder can be forgivable in cases such as killing in the line of duty, but the term becomes murky due to the connotations attached to it. Saying that somebody murdered someone sounds worse than saying that someone has killed someone. And to pretty much everybody they are not the same thing.

But for the sake of argument the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary (10 edition. 1998) definition is...

Murder N 1. the crime of unlawfully killing a person esp. with malice aforethought.

Murder V 1. to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice.

Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary basically says that Jim is right.

*Oh and Jim! I was just thrown off because of the exclamation mark at the end of your original response. It read as though I pissed you off when all I was doing was presenting a situation in which Superman would kill. Sorry for the miss reading, the scenario was certainly sick.

Jim! wrote:

TheUbiquitious_MrLoveBear wrote:

Well being someone who lives in Texas I can assure you if you shoot someone on your property it is most definitely murder and you WILL be going to jail. You can always shoot someone on your property, but whether you go to jail is up to the law, which I believe in all states illegal.
I suppose you should have to look at the murder thing the other way. In Iraq, the people we are fighting are called terrorists right? and our troops are the heroes. To them there so called terrorists are freedom fighters, and we are the enemies. Therefore we are murdering them on there own land. I never said they weren't wrong, but it is a two-way street.
Why isn't abortion murder? Just because it is a medical procedure does not make it alright. It is technically impossible to kill a fetus without knowing for sure if the fetus will ever have felt the pain. Taking someones life against there will is the definition of murder, and I'm pretty certain a baby does not want his/her life to end before it began. A cop killing in the line of duty? Sadly that is hardly the case these days, the cops nowadays are rather violent and angry. It is rare that one has to shoot a criminal, but for the sake of moving on lets say he does kill a criminal. The criminal say had a knife, and was running at the officer, so he shot in self-defense. That you say would not count as murder because self-defense, or line of duty? Killing someone is definition of murder Its the most basic form. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all murders are wrong. Some have truly been on accident, and others in self-defense, BUT even though you killed someone without malice intent, you still have to go to court and plead you case because you murdered someone.

In the shooting case most recently in the paper, the Texas court found the defendant not guilty of murder, therefore he is not a murderer. Murder is a legal definition, which is why I said that abortion is not murder. It has nothing to do with right or wrong, or whether the fetus feels pain, it is a legal medical procedure, which is why doctors and women carrying the fetus are not arrested. Not all cops are violent and angry and their shootings are reviewed and if it falls within the guidelines, it is not murder. Again not making a judgement on right or wrong, just what the law says. A soldier is following orders. i do not believe the current war is a just war, but that doesn't make the soldier a murderer. The point of view I am taking is ours. Even though a cow may consider the slaughter of his people murder, I see it as making lunch. Are you to be considered a murderer because you use an anti-bacterial soap? You plead your case in court because you've killed someone, it is the court's judgement to determine if its murder.

ok an example then, the movie A Few Good Men
A general, or officer (someone higher in command) commanded two lower men to kill another lower man because he was not performing up to par. The two men did as they were told. Are you saying that because the officer said told them to kill him it makes it not murder? Obeying the officer is not always the right choice.
As for the fetus thing, I was saying that it wasn't ethical yeah, BUT my main point was that the fetus was technically alive, killing it therefore was murder. Just because you get away with murder doesn't mean it isn't murder. Again I'm not saying all murder isn't justified, but it usually isn't. Killing for your country isn't exactly what I'd call patriotic, now Defending your country is.
World War 2, Hiroshima was a mass murder of at least half a million. Not including the other city. And it seemed like a better idea to do that instead of invading it like Normandy, BUT just because of that, Japan lost MANY many lives.

Just for the record I wasn't making an argument when I said "semantics" I was correcting Wholesome who said "syntax" and meant "semantics." I didn't just edit it because I know it offends some people.

Mr.Wholesome wrote:

Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary basically says that Jim is right.

I should use that sentence at the end of every post!

Thanks for the clairification. There are lots of gray areas when it comes to taking another life. To some Dr. Kirvorkian was a murderer and to others he was not.

Jim! wrote:

Mr.Wholesome wrote:

Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary basically says that Jim is right.

I should use that sentence at the end of every post!

Thanks for the clairification. There are lots of gray areas when it comes to taking another life. To some Dr. Kirvorkian was a murderer and to others he was not.

Well you don't have a signature right now & that would be a good one. Just click on your profile and then click on the button that says signature.

TheUbiquitious_MrLoveBear wrote:

ok an example then, the movie A Few Good Men
A general, or officer (someone higher in command) commanded two lower men to kill another lower man because he was not performing up to par. The two men did as they were told. Are you saying that because the officer said told them to kill him it makes it not murder? Obeying the officer is not always the right choice.
As for the fetus thing, I was saying that it wasn't ethical yeah, BUT my main point was that the fetus was technically alive, killing it therefore was murder. Just because you get away with murder doesn't mean it isn't murder. Again I'm not saying all murder isn't justified, but it usually isn't. Killing for your country isn't exactly what I'd call patriotic, now Defending your country is.
World War 2, Hiroshima was a mass murder of at least half a million. Not including the other city. And it seemed like a better idea to do that instead of invading it like Normandy, BUT just because of that, Japan lost MANY many lives.

in that example, the men were guilty of murder because the order they were following was unlawful. I was thinking more a combat situation in a war setting; you are shooting at soldiers who are shooting at you. But Wholesome had a point (and a good one, too) even if you equate murder and killing, murder has a connotation denoting malice and intent. So we will buy products that say "kills 99% of bacteria", but we may not want to buy it if it says "99% effective as a mass murderer of bacteria". For me, I tend to view killing as the ending of a life, and murder as the ending of a life but with an element of malice.

Wow great discussion everyone - thanks!

Jim! wrote:

TheUbiquitious_MrLoveBear wrote:

ok an example then, the movie A Few Good Men
A general, or officer (someone higher in command) commanded two lower men to kill another lower man because he was not performing up to par. The two men did as they were told. Are you saying that because the officer said told them to kill him it makes it not murder? Obeying the officer is not always the right choice.
As for the fetus thing, I was saying that it wasn't ethical yeah, BUT my main point was that the fetus was technically alive, killing it therefore was murder. Just because you get away with murder doesn't mean it isn't murder. Again I'm not saying all murder isn't justified, but it usually isn't. Killing for your country isn't exactly what I'd call patriotic, now Defending your country is.
World War 2, Hiroshima was a mass murder of at least half a million. Not including the other city. And it seemed like a better idea to do that instead of invading it like Normandy, BUT just because of that, Japan lost MANY many lives.

in that example, the men were guilty of murder because the order they were following was unlawful. I was thinking more a combat situation in a war setting; you are shooting at soldiers who are shooting at you. But Wholesome had a point (and a good one, too) even if you equate murder and killing, murder has a connotation denoting malice and intent. So we will buy products that say "kills 99% of bacteria", but we may not want to buy it if it says "99% effective as a mass murderer of bacteria". For me, I tend to view killing as the ending of a life, and murder as the ending of a life but with an element of malice.

Wow great discussion everyone - thanks!

just because the word killl denotates murder doesn't mean that all things that say kill should have murder. :\
but indeed its been a great discussion

TheUbiquitious_MrLoveBear wrote:

Jim! wrote:

TheUbiquitious_MrLoveBear wrote:

Well being someone who lives in Texas I can assure you if you shoot someone on your property it is most definitely murder and you WILL be going to jail. You can always shoot someone on your property, but whether you go to jail is up to the law, which I believe in all states illegal.
I suppose you should have to look at the murder thing the other way. In Iraq, the people we are fighting are called terrorists right? and our troops are the heroes. To them there so called terrorists are freedom fighters, and we are the enemies. Therefore we are murdering them on there own land. I never said they weren't wrong, but it is a two-way street.
Why isn't abortion murder? Just because it is a medical procedure does not make it alright. It is technically impossible to kill a fetus without knowing for sure if the fetus will ever have felt the pain. Taking someones life against there will is the definition of murder, and I'm pretty certain a baby does not want his/her life to end before it began. A cop killing in the line of duty? Sadly that is hardly the case these days, the cops nowadays are rather violent and angry. It is rare that one has to shoot a criminal, but for the sake of moving on lets say he does kill a criminal. The criminal say had a knife, and was running at the officer, so he shot in self-defense. That you say would not count as murder because self-defense, or line of duty? Killing someone is definition of murder Its the most basic form. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all murders are wrong. Some have truly been on accident, and others in self-defense, BUT even though you killed someone without malice intent, you still have to go to court and plead you case because you murdered someone.

In the shooting case most recently in the paper, the Texas court found the defendant not guilty of murder, therefore he is not a murderer. Murder is a legal definition, which is why I said that abortion is not murder. It has nothing to do with right or wrong, or whether the fetus feels pain, it is a legal medical procedure, which is why doctors and women carrying the fetus are not arrested. Not all cops are violent and angry and their shootings are reviewed and if it falls within the guidelines, it is not murder. Again not making a judgement on right or wrong, just what the law says. A soldier is following orders. i do not believe the current war is a just war, but that doesn't make the soldier a murderer. The point of view I am taking is ours. Even though a cow may consider the slaughter of his people murder, I see it as making lunch. Are you to be considered a murderer because you use an anti-bacterial soap? You plead your case in court because you've killed someone, it is the court's judgement to determine if its murder.

ok an example then, the movie A Few Good Men
A general, or officer (someone higher in command) commanded two lower men to kill another lower man because he was not performing up to par. The two men did as they were told. Are you saying that because the officer said told them to kill him it makes it not murder? Obeying the officer is not always the right choice.
As for the fetus thing, I was saying that it wasn't ethical yeah, BUT my main point was that the fetus was technically alive, killing it therefore was murder. Just because you get away with murder doesn't mean it isn't murder. Again I'm not saying all murder isn't justified, but it usually isn't. Killing for your country isn't exactly what I'd call patriotic, now Defending your country is.
World War 2, Hiroshima was a mass murder of at least half a million. Not including the other city. And it seemed like a better idea to do that instead of invading it like Normandy, BUT just because of that, Japan lost MANY many lives.

Ok Ive been staying out of this mostly because I felt you three were doing a very nice job of covering most peoples view points. But the abortion is murder because your taking a life thing kept bugging me.

Like you said you dont know if they can feel pain. I personally dont think of abortion as murder because I personally dont think life begins untill birth.


If they were truely alive at the time when a legal abortion is still able to be done then I think that they should be able to survive outside of the womb at that time. There is no way you can say something is truely alive if it won't survive on its own. I dont know if im making sense to any of you. What Im trying to say is that the point that something becomes a living being is different and up to interpretation to everyone, just like the definition of murder.

GreatWhiteNinja wrote:

TheUbiquitious_MrLoveBear wrote:

Jim! wrote:

TheUbiquitious_MrLoveBear wrote:

Well being someone who lives in Texas I can assure you if you shoot someone on your property it is most definitely murder and you WILL be going to jail. You can always shoot someone on your property, but whether you go to jail is up to the law, which I believe in all states illegal.
I suppose you should have to look at the murder thing the other way. In Iraq, the people we are fighting are called terrorists right? and our troops are the heroes. To them there so called terrorists are freedom fighters, and we are the enemies. Therefore we are murdering them on there own land. I never said they weren't wrong, but it is a two-way street.
Why isn't abortion murder? Just because it is a medical procedure does not make it alright. It is technically impossible to kill a fetus without knowing for sure if the fetus will ever have felt the pain. Taking someones life against there will is the definition of murder, and I'm pretty certain a baby does not want his/her life to end before it began. A cop killing in the line of duty? Sadly that is hardly the case these days, the cops nowadays are rather violent and angry. It is rare that one has to shoot a criminal, but for the sake of moving on lets say he does kill a criminal. The criminal say had a knife, and was running at the officer, so he shot in self-defense. That you say would not count as murder because self-defense, or line of duty? Killing someone is definition of murder Its the most basic form. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that all murders are wrong. Some have truly been on accident, and others in self-defense, BUT even though you killed someone without malice intent, you still have to go to court and plead you case because you murdered someone.

In the shooting case most recently in the paper, the Texas court found the defendant not guilty of murder, therefore he is not a murderer. Murder is a legal definition, which is why I said that abortion is not murder. It has nothing to do with right or wrong, or whether the fetus feels pain, it is a legal medical procedure, which is why doctors and women carrying the fetus are not arrested. Not all cops are violent and angry and their shootings are reviewed and if it falls within the guidelines, it is not murder. Again not making a judgement on right or wrong, just what the law says. A soldier is following orders. i do not believe the current war is a just war, but that doesn't make the soldier a murderer. The point of view I am taking is ours. Even though a cow may consider the slaughter of his people murder, I see it as making lunch. Are you to be considered a murderer because you use an anti-bacterial soap? You plead your case in court because you've killed someone, it is the court's judgement to determine if its murder.

ok an example then, the movie A Few Good Men
A general, or officer (someone higher in command) commanded two lower men to kill another lower man because he was not performing up to par. The two men did as they were told. Are you saying that because the officer said told them to kill him it makes it not murder? Obeying the officer is not always the right choice.
As for the fetus thing, I was saying that it wasn't ethical yeah, BUT my main point was that the fetus was technically alive, killing it therefore was murder. Just because you get away with murder doesn't mean it isn't murder. Again I'm not saying all murder isn't justified, but it usually isn't. Killing for your country isn't exactly what I'd call patriotic, now Defending your country is.
World War 2, Hiroshima was a mass murder of at least half a million. Not including the other city. And it seemed like a better idea to do that instead of invading it like Normandy, BUT just because of that, Japan lost MANY many lives.

Ok Ive been staying out of this mostly because I felt you three were doing a very nice job of covering most peoples view points. But the abortion is murder because your taking a life thing kept bugging me.

Like you said you dont know if they can feel pain. I personally dont think of abortion as murder because I personally dont think life begins untill birth.


If they were truely alive at the time when a legal abortion is still able to be done then I think that they should be able to survive outside of the womb at that time. There is no way you can say something is truely alive if it won't survive on its own. I dont know if im making sense to any of you. What Im trying to say is that the point that something becomes a living being is different and up to interpretation to everyone, just like the definition of murder.

Oh shit. You went on to the abortion issue. Somebody might have to move this conversation over to the politics thread....I'm PRO-LIFE by the way. I'm going to stop right there for now though....Except to say that the term PRO-CHOICE was a genius tool of propaganda. Who the hell want's to be anti-choice? That's the connotation and once that term came into use America started to shift it's stance on the abortion issue.

i'm going to pretend i didn't wander into this thread.



but i will agree with wholesome's suggestion that you move abortion talk to the politics section as well.

Mr.Wholesome wrote:

GreatWhiteNinja wrote:

Ok Ive been staying out of this mostly because I felt you three were doing a very nice job of covering most peoples view points. But the abortion is murder because your taking a life thing kept bugging me.

Like you said you dont know if they can feel pain. I personally dont think of abortion as murder because I personally dont think life begins untill birth.


If they were truely alive at the time when a legal abortion is still able to be done then I think that they should be able to survive outside of the womb at that time. There is no way you can say something is truely alive if it won't survive on its own. I dont know if im making sense to any of you. What Im trying to say is that the point that something becomes a living being is different and up to interpretation to everyone, just like the definition of murder.

Oh shit. You went on to the abortion issue. Somebody might have to move this conversation over to the politics thread....I'm PRO-LIFE by the way. I'm going to stop right there for now though....Except to say that the term PRO-CHOICE was a genius tool of propaganda. Who the hell want's to be anti-choice? That's the connotation and once that term came into use America started to shift it's stance on the abortion issue.

I might add that PRO-LIFE is also a good propaganda tool, because who wants to be ANTI-LIFE? Actually choice is the debatable argument. The law gives women the "choice" to have an abortion or not. I don't think anyone on the pro-choice side is supporting the law because they love to kill fetuses, or is anti-life.

The viability argument used to be the standard for life. I haven't looked it up, but I believe the viablility of a pre-mature birth is somewhere in the 26 week stage. I used to be in the ventilator business and had heard of high-fequency ventilationof babies under 1 gm of wieght (<2.2 lbs).

Jim! wrote:

Mr.Wholesome wrote:

GreatWhiteNinja wrote:

Ok Ive been staying out of this mostly because I felt you three were doing a very nice job of covering most peoples view points. But the abortion is murder because your taking a life thing kept bugging me.

Like you said you dont know if they can feel pain. I personally dont think of abortion as murder because I personally dont think life begins untill birth.


If they were truely alive at the time when a legal abortion is still able to be done then I think that they should be able to survive outside of the womb at that time. There is no way you can say something is truely alive if it won't survive on its own. I dont know if im making sense to any of you. What Im trying to say is that the point that something becomes a living being is different and up to interpretation to everyone, just like the definition of murder.

Oh shit. You went on to the abortion issue. Somebody might have to move this conversation over to the politics thread....I'm PRO-LIFE by the way. I'm going to stop right there for now though....Except to say that the term PRO-CHOICE was a genius tool of propaganda. Who the hell want's to be anti-choice? That's the connotation and once that term came into use America started to shift it's stance on the abortion issue.

I might add that PRO-LIFE is also a good propaganda tool, because who wants to be ANTI-LIFE? Actually choice is the debatable argument. The law gives women the "choice" to have an abortion or not. I don't think anyone on the pro-choice side is supporting the law because they love to kill fetuses, or is anti-life.

The viability argument used to be the standard for life. I haven't looked it up, but I believe the viablility of a pre-mature birth is somewhere in the 26 week stage. I used to be in the ventilator business and had heard of high-fequency ventilationof babies under 1 gm of wieght (<2.2 lbs).

The politics thread please?

TJ wrote:

The politics thread please?

I think it's gone, but I'm done here. thanks

Jim! wrote:

TJ wrote:

The politics thread please?

I think it's gone, but I'm done here. thanks

Yeah im done with the topic as well just got my opinion out there. Thats all I wanted to do.